KORE Outdoors Podcast

00:00:01] Christian Rawles: you Made the announcement a few weeks ago that, uh, northwest Alpine is closing. So I'm wondering if you can take me back to that moment of like, making that decision and saying, yeah, this is it.

We're closing it. . What went into the decision, and then what was the timeline that led up to that decision?

[00:00:16] Bill Amos: I mean, I've been thinking about it for a while. , I guess, uh, just for the last couple of months looking at what, um. You know, where we're at revenue wise, where we need to be, you know, to, to really be in a sustainable place where I can pay myself a salary that, you know, I need to pay my personal expenses and, and, you know, to pay Caleb enough and, and all that sort of stuff.

And so we kind of had this discussion at the beginning of 20, 20, 25, and we're like, okay, you know, we really need to at least double our revenue where we're at. Um, and so we, we were actually around like, , our gross revenue was up [00:01:00] around 50% year over year. So we were growing and, you know, it was, it was looking, looking okay.

, But kind of got to a spot a couple months ago where cash, cash was really tight and we were having to buy some materials and, and do some other, uh, other stuff that, that was gonna take cash. And it was like. Okay. , I don't personally have more cash to put into the business right now. And, you know, just generally looking at, um, you know, where the, where the market is and where I think it's going.

, You know, maybe this doesn't make sense to continue. , So it wasn't like we're at a spot, you know, we don't have investors or, , really debt, , much debt, uh, beyond like, you know, a couple thousand dollars on credit cards and that sort of stuff. , I talked to, talked to some investors, talked to, .

, Some companies, uh, might've been interested in acquisition and, and that sort of stuff, and none of that [00:02:00] really, , looked like it was gonna pan out in a timely manner. And, um, so just kind of made the decision that okay, you know, it's like we weren't being forced to shut down by creditors or, you know, anything like that.

It was more a decision like, okay, , I'm 44 now. , We could keep going and kind of limp along and, and hope that, , we can double our sales in the next six months. And, um, it just didn't seem like a, like a realistic thing. , Especially going into what I think is gonna be some pretty challenging economic times, for the country generally.

And just looking at, you know, just a lot of the, the, uh, bigger brands just being 40 and 50% off. Constantly and all, all that, a, has a major effect because it's like we can't discount like that, you know, especially being made in the US and, and all that. So, , kind of decided [00:03:00] that, , also now is, now is probably a good time to, to do it 'cause we can liquidate things and people still have money and, , the economy is still okay.

I guess. I, I don't know. , So in some ways it was , if you're gonna, if you're gonna panic, panic first sort of thing. And , I know that there's a lot of other businesses that are challenged right now. , Our kind of liquidation and all that has gone like way more smoothly than I thought it would.

And I think we have something like, we have like 50 pieces left or something at this point. So we're trying to be, we have to be out of our space tomorrow for the end of the month and, and all that. So it's looking like it actually worked out. Worked out okay. Surprisingly.

[00:03:40] Christian Rawles: , So when you made that decision, what was the feeling that you had? Yeah. Okay. I've gotta move on from this chapter. Was it like relief? Was it frustration? Was it disappointment? Well, yeah. What'd you feel?

[00:03:49] Bill Amos: Yeah,

it's, it's funny 'cause a lot, you know, I've gotten a lot of messages from a lot of friends and just being like, oh, I'm so sorry, like all that, I'm like, no, it's fine. You [00:04:00] know? , It is like a bit of a relief 'cause it's hard to run a business that's like, you know, we were marginally profitable but not , not enough that I was able to pay myself enough to like.

To really have the salary that I was comfortable with and, and all that sort of stuff. So, , yeah. in a lot of ways it, it's a, it's a relief for sure. , And it's funny 'cause, you know, that was mostly from like my friends that don't run businesses and whatever. I was so sorry, like all that.

Then my friends that were that run Business they were like, oh, congratulations. Like, that's, I'm jealous.

[00:04:31] Christian Rawles: yeah. Business is hard, right? Like it's, it's super hard to do these things, and I think it's to the outside sometimes it's like, uh,, people may think that your dream is dying, and, and sometimes it's like. That's okay. I'm cool. I got another dream. I got buckets of dreams.

[00:04:49] Bill Amos: yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, Northwest Alpine's been around for 15 years and I kind of feel , as we talked about on, on the last, um last episode, . [00:05:00] For, for eight or nine years while we were running, running the factory, the brand was kind of like in the background, , and all that.

And I feel like really shutting down the factory 'cause it was a much bigger business, , felt like a lot bigger of a deal to me. , And I don't know that, like honestly, I came out of that super psyched to be running a much smaller business in a, in a difficult, you know, very competitive industry and, , and all that.

So may, I mean, I, I don't know that I, I had like a hundred percent to put into, to, to doing it also , I think about that a lot too. , Did I do as much as I could have? Probably not, because I was pretty tired from, you know, from that, from the whole factory, you know, ordeal and COVID and all that sort of stuff.

And then it was like, okay, it took me a year to shut the factory down. That was like a emotionally and mentally draining process dealing with banks and all that sort of shit. [00:06:00] And, , yeah, , I don't know. It almost feels like this is like kind of closure from just that whole chapter, , and I'm not like, , I'm bummed, , don't get me wrong.

Like it's sad that, you know, this is not, not gonna be an ongoing thing, but, you know, I've, I've accepted it and I'm fine.

[00:06:18] Christian Rawles: Cool. Good. Yeah, , it's a really good point you make about, , yeah, there's probably a fair bit of like, I don't know, it's like PTSD or something after closing down KA is like, you probably didn't act, you know, in the. In psychological terms, you probably didn't go through the grieving process that you needed to, to actually step into the role at in wa.

So now you're like, , in the midst of letting go of one and like resurrecting essentially the other. That's, that's a lot of work, man. That's a lot of work.

[00:06:44] Bill Amos: Yeah. I don't know. I just think like, I don't know. I don't know what I think. I don't, I like really haven't had a lot of time to like process. All this either. So who knows, maybe in like a couple months I'm gonna be like, oh man, that was crazy. Like, [00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Christian Rawles: Yeah.

[00:07:00] Bill Amos: because it was kind of like we made the decision and then, , and then we're like, all right, we're doing it.

So made the announcement and, , started doing the liquidation stuff and getting everything wrapped up and, , I mean, luckily it's like a lot easier process now, you know? I mean, it's taking a month instead of a year, so, and there's less assets, less liabilities, less everything to deal with.

[00:07:21] Christian Rawles: , To be fair, you are literally, we're recording this conversation as you like close up the shop and move out tomorrow. So I'm sure things will bubble to the surface and you'll have like clear perspective in a year on where this is at. But I appreciate that you're willing to , have this conversation with me about Yeah.

Where you're at in the decisions and I think there's a lot of value that's gonna come, you know, 'cause it's common for people to talk about. The good things that happen in business, and I think this is sometimes can be a real fault of entrepreneurship, is that we hear about the good and we don't necessarily.

Hear about the tough times and yeah, I think there's some hard realities that we all need to face as [00:08:00] entrepreneurs and yeah. So this is super helpful. , , one thing that you mentioned, uh, in your, I think it was the original post about closing down was John, just that you mentioned a second ago, the kinda the cash flow and like, you know, in inventory financing.

, Was it that the tools that are typical for inventory financing or kind of like cash injection, were they just not available like bank loans, investors? Was it just like it wasn't available to you or wasn't available to you at the right time? Or was it just like, yeah, I could go get those things but the road ahead I'm gonna dip and the road ahead iss not worth it.

[00:08:29] Bill Amos: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's more of the latter, like, you know, I was, I'm. I'm kind of debt averse and, , just looking, Okay.

like I can try and take out a loan or go through one of the, like, you serious, whatever lenders. And then, then it's like, okay, but what, , realistically, are we gonna be able to grow this with that cash into, , something that's gonna be sustainable?

, I mean, we have three and a half more years of the [00:09:00] Trump administration and, and chaos and, and that sort of stuff. And I don't, , a lot of that, a lot of the policies with like Medicare and, , I don't wanna get like too political or whatever, but like, those aren't gonna gonna be affect the economy for another year and a half or two years, 20, 26.

And it's just like, can we, , do I wanna be running a marginally profitable business and. In a very uncertain economic time. And like that just, it sounds terrible. Like it's hard enough right now, and I don't think, I don't see things getting better anytime soon.

[00:09:38] Christian Rawles: Yeah. Good for you. , I think that's comes with self-awareness is being able to say, yeah, this is what the potential future is for me. Do I have it in me to do what I think is going to take of me and to be able to say no is and make a decision based on that. I think it's should sign of wisdom. So good on you for it.

Do you think it's a matter of just not being able to sell enough? , I don't want to [00:10:00] make it as blunt as that, but is is, it is essentially down to like, yeah, I just, we just could not sell enough to make this thing a viable business.

[00:10:08] Bill Amos: Yeah, absolutely. , Demand really drives everything in business and it's like if you don't, , if you don't have the demand or you can't create the demand, then you know, you're just kind of. Slogging along, and it's , after probably 2021, , 2022, we lost a lot of like wholesale business, like during the kind of inventory glut period.

And, , so then a lot of our sales were just, , direct to consumer, , online, and that that's fine, but then it just got super difficult to acquire and expensive to acquire customers. We did spend a bunch of money on meta ads and, you know, probably got no return, realistically got no return on that, , or broke even or, or whatever.

And it was just like, okay, you can play like the, the metagame and, and try and do that. Then [00:11:00] we tried to do a bunch of like organic social stuff and, and all that just, , wasn't there. And I don't know, like our product offering's pretty niche also. , And in a, , market where. , People don't necessarily like to spend money, so you have a lot of dirt bad climbers and they all free stuff and , and all that.

So I think that definitely, , definitely was part of

[00:11:22] Christian Rawles: Sure. Yeah. You probably serve a market that's really keen on pro deal and , it's hard to serve that market, , profitably. , I do want to, yeah, we're, I definitely gonna get to kind of the. The question's about the business itself and like , what's feasible for a brand in the future, like your advice for brands in the future.

I definitely wanna get into that. Before we jump into that, I, you've been a big advocate of domestic manufacturing. That's, you've dedicated your career essentially to domestic manufacturing and , after this experience, do you still believe that a US and all US made outdoor apparel brand can scale up , and make it work?

And if you remove [00:12:00] kind of where we're at in this market, just kind of like time and history, do you think it's feasible or have you changed your opinion on that?

[00:12:09] Bill Amos: Oh no, definitely. Like, still, still very positive about, about US manufacturing. I mean, it's kind of, it's been interesting to watch what's happening to , the market that, or you know, that market domestic manufacturing, what's happening with the factories here. Like, I feel like the entire global, like apparel industry is in distress right now.

And it's certainly being, being felt here, like factories are pretty slow. And , I don't know if it's, they're, it's like a demand, but just a global demand thing. And um, I guess I think that once. I think that we're, that, that I think we're in a pretty dark time in our country generally, and that, that this is gonna pass eventually.

, I think it's gonna take a while. , [00:13:00] But, and I think that coming out of that, there's, you know, that, that domestic manufacturing is gonna be a great option for, um, for people because I think we can look at like, what the administration is doing. , And again, not to like be, be political just to, to observe what's happening.

If the goal is to like, tear down basically, , tear down the systems in, in the federal government that make global trade possible, . Global trade and globalization doesn't just happen because we want it to, because it's cheaper. There's systems in place that allow that to happen, right? Like our 900, our trillion dollar a year military that keeps trade lanes open our entire diplomatic core that, you know, uses soft power to influence countries and trade negotiations and that sort of stuff.

Our public health system that keeps people healthy and , that allows supply chains to [00:14:00] exist , and function properly. And when a lot of, I think when a lot of those systems start to break down, which, which they will when you lay everybody off and you know, when you doge the entire government.

And, and I think , that's part of the plan. They just haven't. Communicated to the people that, that that's what they're doing. Like when you take, when you take those services away and you tear down the, the federal government like, it, it has serious impacts on every aspect of American life. And, you know, supply chains are certainly gonna be part of that.

I don't see that, you know, even if Democrats win in 2026 or, or win win the presidency in 2028, that, that a lot of these things can be reversed in any meaningful way. And then we're also looking at broader global conflicts that are gonna absolutely affect supply chains. From what's happening in Ukraine and Russia and Europe to Southeast Asia and, and all that.

, I think it's just, I think global trade is still gonna happen, obviously, but I [00:15:00] think it's gonna get a lot more expensive. Insurance is gonna get a lot more expensive. Every, everything is to the point where it's gonna again, make sense to make things here or nearshore and or nearshore.

[00:15:11] Christian Rawles: Okay, so do we have the work, will we have the workforce in the future to be able to su support that though?

[00:15:16] Bill Amos: Yeah. I mean, that's part of what they're doing, right? They're tearing down Medicaid. And, you know, we've had this, the conversation in the outdoor industry, I, I feel like a broader industry has been like, well, Americans don't want those jobs, but with what they're doing, it doesn't matter if you want the job or not.

Like, do you want to eat? Do you wanna feed your children? Then, you know, you'll do what you have to do, which probably includes working in factories, ,

[00:15:45] Christian Rawles: And

[00:15:45] Bill Amos: which I think is like something that. People aren't really thinking about like that, , that, but that's what's happening. Like when you tear down social safety nets , And you deport everybody that is doing the work now, somebody has to do the work.

And so,

you know, [00:16:00] are you forcing entire seg segments of the population into, into those jobs?

[00:16:05] Christian Rawles: Do you think that hard goods manufacturing has a better chance of success, or is it an easier, , gauntlet to run through than technical apparel for domestic manufacturing?

[00:16:17] Bill Amos: , That's a good, that's a good question. , It's, there's a lot. It seems like a lot of the, . Kind of re industrialize movement, , is going more towards metal and CNC machining and all that sort of stuff. And there's more you can do, you know, with robotics and, and whatever and those things. So potentially, , I think a, like in kind of, in my view, a lot of the people that are trying to solve, , a lot of the textile, gar, especially in garment manufacturing problems are focusing on the wrong, the wrong things.

, They're trying to figure out how to, how to automate, um, a lot of the, [00:17:00] you know, value added time. , So not to get too deep into it, but maybe I will

[00:17:06] Christian Rawles: Let's do it.

[00:17:07] Bill Amos: because I think it's, it's interesting, , . In any factory you have value at a time. Non-value at a time. Value at a time is any time , you're doing something to a product that your customer is paying for, basically.

So in sewing factory, that's when the needle is going up and down and attaching the fabric together. So everything else is non-value at a time. , So like bundling things together and tying them off and counting things and do, , doing all, all of those things. , Your customer's not paying you to like move fabric around and, and doing all that.

So a lot of the, , and there is a limit to like the value added time in a garment, right? , Like probably the most complicated garment , you can make that we make, , is a like lined and insulated belay jacket, and that's about three hours. , So if you're a value at a time, so.

If you think about it, three [00:18:00] hours, , and you're paying your sowers $22 an hour, that's 60, $66. , And that's like very reasonable for a garment that you're gonna sell for 450 or $500. , The problem is in the not, , so it's like you don't need to automate a way that $66, you need to figure out how to get rid of all the non, , non-value at a time that's in there.

Because really, like in an inefficient factory, that three hours turns into six hours or nine hours and then all of a sudden, you know, your, your, your pricing is, is way out of the market. , There's a lot that I think factories can do to start to eliminate some of the non-value at a time. Like doing some of the, what we were doing at Cabo, lean one piece flow, that sort of stuff that factories just have not adopted yet.

, So I think that there's a lot that can be done, , to kind of improve the domestic supply chain. [00:19:00] And, , so I think there's, there's a lot of opportunities there and I think that, , in terms of, you know, I can't remember if we talked about it.

before, but I've written about it on, on LinkedIn And everything.

Like I think that being close to market. , No, you. know, fewer emissions from transportation. , Being able to, to make, to demand and have three week lead times instead of nine month lead times. All of those things are like, would be hugely beneficial to the outdoor industry and solve a lot of the problems that everybody complains about.

, And I don't know how else to Do it, right. I mean, I think, like , I'm really interested watching, , what Will Waters is doing with Western Rise, , and, you know, going to Vietnam and, and, , like I was a little, like skeptical at first. I was like, oh, Will's moving to Vietnam. Interesting. , But then like after following some of his posts and everyth, it's like, oh, that, , that makes sense.

That might be the only way to make a sustainable apparel brand in, you know, with Asian manufacturing. I don't, I don't [00:20:00] know. , It's cool to me that you

[00:20:01] Christian Rawles: Do you mean that because he's there , he can increase the speed to market by being, you know, essentially at his factor every day.

[00:20:07] Bill Amos: Yeah. Yeah. absolutely. I think that's part of it. And then also like not working with middlemen, , and all that sort of stuff. And then, , he's talked about working directly with the fabric mills, , that have stock programs. So you're not having to buy, , 3000 yards fabric and just being able to like, work directly , with the factories and all that means huge, huge benefit.

, Otherwise you're stuck with, , probably 1500, 2000 piece minimums for every style and then, , colors within that. And then you have a huge inventory problem that I think what they, that they were prob probably facing before making the decision to do that.

[00:20:48] Christian Rawles: Yeah. Well, it's interesting because. That's an example of how it could work in Vietnam because the, the fabrics are there and a [00:21:00] lower wage workforce who is highly skilled, is there,

[00:21:04] Bill Amos: Yeah.

[00:21:04] Christian Rawles: how can we replicate that in North America?

[00:21:08] Bill Amos: , Again, I think it's, it's a, it's a demand problem. Like I think that if brands wanna make stuff here, they just have to commit to it. And then, , they have, there's not like an easy, there's not an easy way to do

[00:21:25] Christian Rawles: Oh god,

[00:21:25] Bill Amos: like. You have to go in and, and learn how to manufacture things to work with the factories, , in, in a way that, that makes sense or that works.

, And a lot of brands just don't have that in their, , in their workforce because they're so, , used to just sending stuff overseas and then the factory does all the work so they don't need to like, know, actually understand how governments are constructed and how, how production lines work and all that sort of stuff.

, Yeah, , I think there's, if a brand wanted, wanted to do it, they need to somehow get that knowledge and [00:22:00] that means, , sending people to learn how factories work again. And I mean, I, you know, I don't know. , I don't know if they're gonna do that. , , It seems to be happening. I'm seeing domestic manufacturing really start to take off more at higher end lifestyle clothing. So not in necessarily outdoor industry, but let's just call it, for lack of better term fashion. I, it's not like high fashion, but it's just everyday apparel.

[00:22:25] Christian Rawles: Like you're seeing, you know, a denim and , wax cottons and these kind of like, it's essentially like heritage wear that's coming back into style. And it just so happens that we still have factories that. Make that stuff in America and you see that it's actually, there's a bunch of brands springing up and doing this.

Yes, you're gonna pay $400 for a pair of those pants, or you're gonna pay $600 for the jacket. And who knows what's happening on the inside of these businesses, but they seem to be growing. From the outside perspective, they seem to be growing. , I wonder if, because of [00:23:00] our industry and because of all the other things that are in play at the same time, from a retail big brand perspective, has we just trained the consumers that it's like, it, it doesn't work.

[00:23:10] Bill Amos: Well, I mean, I think it's possible because the price points even, , on most of the outdoor industry, products are high enough that you can make money doing it here. , Gross margin wasn't our problem at all. , Our, ours was demand related. , So it's definitely possible, and I think like if you're, if you're a big brand , with decent volumes and all that, that you can work with factories to get more efficient and, and bring pricing down.

I mean, it's never gonna be, , Vietnam where they're $113 a month or something like that. Like your labor costs are always gonna be more than that. But I think you have to look at all of the other factors, like lead times and shipping costs and every, everything that's gonna go up, , over the next decade.

, And at some point it [00:24:00] probably makes sense to, to make stuff here again.

[00:24:03] Christian Rawles: Do you ever think about, so if you're saying it's a demand issue, essentially it's sales like you, you gross margin work, we just need to sell more of it.

[00:24:11] Bill Amos: Yeah.

[00:24:12] Christian Rawles: , Is there a playbook or is there somebody who's doing it? You're like, oh, if we just use that playbook. Plugged it into our product. This would totally work.

, As entrepreneurs, we have our different skill sets, right? Your skillset is more of the operational production side of things. Maybe it hasn't been on the sales and marketing side of things. Do you ever think like, if I just plug a sales and marketing wizard into this, does this thing work?

Is it as simple as that?

[00:24:37] Bill Amos: I don't know. That's good. That's a great question. , Yeah, I'm not sure. I think, , there, there are kind of like those, those three aspects of business that. Do that you have to, that your business has to cover, right? Like sales and marketing, finance and then production and, and operations and that sort of stuff.

, And [00:25:00] it is really hard for one person to be really good at all three of those things. It's impossible. pretty much. , So yeah, I mean if you had someone that was like a wiz marketer and, and could do it, I mean, I'm just skeptical 'cause like, you know, we've worked with an agency and , for email marketing and then for some meta stuff for a while and it's like okay, you know, big promises and, and all that.

, But Yeah.

I mean, just finding someone that's like really good at that I think is a lot harder than, ,

[00:25:30] Christian Rawles: He.

[00:25:30] Bill Amos: most people probably

[00:25:31] Christian Rawles: Yeah. And sales and marketing is like this really interesting overlap of a, it's timing, it's product, it's story. There's a bunch of things that have to, the stars have to align for it to really turn into a rocket ship. It's not a formula for sure. So I, I understand that. ,

do you think that the core outdoor market is shrinking or is it just being ignored?

[00:25:54] Bill Amos: , I think it's probably shrinking, , but I think that's a [00:26:00] result of it being ignored Also, like, I think it's a, there's definitely a chicken and an egg scenario. . So I think when, like the big brands that have a heritage and outdoor sports like climbing and stuff, you know, kind of ignore it as this.

Like, okay, that was our heritage and then we'll use it in some of our marketing and then whatever. But we're not like sponsoring a whole bunch of young athletes. Yeah, I mean the sports are gonna die because like Gen Z doesn't have any money. , They don't have the, the ability to take two months off to go to Yosemite and figure out how to big wall climb and do you know the things that you need to do to like, progress in the sport?

It's expensive and, , you can dirt bag and, and whatever, but you still have to have health insurance and or should and, all of those other things. So I think that whole culture is kind of. Dying out. , It's, to me, it seems that way at, at least in climbing, and then you're [00:27:00] competing, you know, against scrolling TikTok and, you know, doing all those, those other things that, that young people are doing.

So it definitely,, I think there's, uh, you know, my generation, , our generation's getting older and, , it's harder to get out when you're in your forties and things hurt. And you, if you haven't like, like me, like, you know. Did a lot of stuff in my twenties without , understanding that I was hurting my body and that not taking care of myself was gonna be a, you know, a problem when I got to my, my forties.

, I think there's a lot of people like that. , Yeah, there isn't, like, I aren't people coming up in the background. A a lot of, I think in climbing a lot of it is like gym climbers and all that, and there is some like, transition of gym to crag and all that, but I don't know if it goes beyond, you know, that at this point.

So like, how many young people are super into to alpine climbing and, , or going [00:28:00] to pursue things in the Alaska range and, and other places. I don't know. I don't have the numbers or anything like that. It's just kind of a gut feeling that, . that it's kind of waning, but, , I don't

[00:28:10] Christian Rawles: Yeah, it'd be, that's, that's a really good, the, the big expedition numbers. That, that, that's an interesting question. I wonder. I'm have to dig into that to figure it out. Um, specialty retail has always been important for small brands. So what could, and you know, you mentioned that earlier that you had some retail issues during COVID and had to kind of pivot to DT C but you since have brought in and gotten reattached to that wholesale channel a little bit.

But what do you think that retailers could do differently to really support small brands, you know, domestic manufacturing brands, but just small brands in general?

[00:28:44] Bill Amos: , Just buy more of their stuff., That's what it comes down to, honestly. And, and then actually sell it. Like if you don't. , If you don't sell it, it's gonna sit on a shelf because big, small brands don't have the brand recognition of people walking off the street. So [00:29:00] maybe really, , if you're like, I am psyched about this brand, , I like what they're doing.

I like to support domestic manufacturing, then you need to actually do it. You need to buy their products and, and sell it. And we had some really good retailers that were doing that, like the Mountaineer and, uh, king Valley, New York, and Big Willie's and Lone Pine, super small shop, but super psyched about it.

, But then we had other, , I don't wanna put anyone on blast, but It's , they're like, okay, well we'll buy, , we'll buy some field sim pats from you, you know, in the fall or, and it's like, well, we might not be around in the fall. , I think that was, that maybe that like is, was also one of our problems.

, I think that like a lot of people thought we were a lot bigger than we were. , And I mean, got got that a lot. Like, we're like tiny, tiny. I'm like, no, no, no. We're like really small. And so it, it's like a big deal for, for you to place like a 2000 or $3,000 order with us. Like that's, that's huge for us.

Like we need that. , Or, and if you're excited about it, then [00:30:00] you know, and you want us to be around, then you need to buy our products. , That's kinda the crazy thing about starting the liquidation processes in the beginning. Like how many, , like new customers we were getting. That's so frustrating.

And they were buying stuff at full price also, like before, 'cause we announced we're shutting down and that we're gonna start like, or liquidate. 'cause we knew we'd sell like our popular products at full price because people wanted, wanted them and everything. That, that was super fascinating to see like those newer returning customer numbers and be like, where would.

Where have you been? So, I Don't know. , That's definitely our, , marketing problem for us is how Okay, like we have eyeballs on the products. Like why aren't, why aren't new people purchasing and all that sort of stuff?

[00:30:42] Christian Rawles: Do you think it was the price? Is that a contributing factor? Is it , once the price started to drop, you got the new customers, or you're saying you got new

[00:30:47] Bill Amos: they were buying stuff at full price.

[00:30:49] Christian Rawles: Oh, wow.

[00:30:51] Bill Amos: Yeah.

[00:30:51] Christian Rawles: Yeah. Well, I guess it's like, damn, I've always wanted this and now I gotta commit.

[00:30:55] Bill Amos: Yeah.

yeah. That, I think that's definitely part of it. And then, , then when we started [00:31:00] dropping prices, it was like bonanza.

[00:31:03] Christian Rawles: Yeah. , Staying on the retail theme for a second, we've seen some,, pretty big names, outdoor shops in the last few weeks announce that they're going to close, but they're not selling. They're essentially gonna clo they're gonna wind down and close their doors. , What do you think the industry needs to do to make sure that we don't lose too many of these independent store owners as they age out?

[00:31:26] Bill Amos: Uh, REI needs to close like a quarter of their stores,

[00:31:29] Christian Rawles: Okay, sure. Let, let off the

[00:31:33] Bill Amos: is not gonna happen.

[00:31:34] Christian Rawles: It's not gonna happen. So it's just too much competition. There's no, there's no way to do it. 'cause I mean, I, I think about the, the long term ramifications. Okay, so I'm just gonna go on a, a rant here for a second. We've seen this, and I know you're on the same side of this, so I'm preaching to the choir, but we've seen this in the brand side, right?

You have private equity and publicly traded companies or. They get acquired by public traded companies come in the portfolio or private equity takes 'em. So now these brands who have been staples in the outdoor industry are now [00:32:00] focused on quarterly earnings and they make decisions based on quarterly earnings and not really much more beyond that.

Okay. So that puts us in the state where we are from a brand side, from a product side, like over-indexing to lifestyle. We've lost core, all these things. But now we're gonna see, we're starting to see the same thing happen from the specialty retail side. Right. And it's like what happens when these, , independent store owners are starting to age out?

Yeah. Some of may be able to sell 'em to their kids, maybe some of 'em can sell 'em to their staff, but like, who, who's setting up like much like the decision you had to make. 'cause like is this worth it? Like, is it worth me taking this on? And you know, that's a question for these, some of these retailers is like.

Why not sell it? And the fact of the matter is, is like it may not be worth it. I may be like ruining somebody's life if they buy it from me.

[00:32:53] Bill Amos: Yeah,

exactly. Like it's, I think it's grim and I think [00:33:00] that's, I think that's like a, a also a function of all the discounting that's been happening and all that has definitely affected independent. Retailers margins, like hugely to the point where I don't even know how any of them make money or if they are making money and, and obviously they aren't because they're going outta business and not selling.

Like, if there were margin there, people would, you know, enough margin to like make a living, like a real living and, and all that, people would buy 'em. ,

[00:33:27] Christian Rawles: Yeah.

[00:33:28] Bill Amos: but they're, they're

[00:33:29] Christian Rawles: So how does this play out, right? Like, you know, you think about the outdoor industry as we know it now, like if it plays out where we have. A handful of big brands that are privately owned or a handful of brands that are privately owned. But then we, everybody else is private equity owned or publicly traded, and we're selling into the same group of big box stores.

Like, it kind of feels like collectively as outdoor industry we should say, whoa, whoa, whoa. If we want this thing to still be interesting and cool and, you know, not Nike versus [00:34:00] Adidas versus Under Armour, which is essentially feels like where we're headed. , What do we do? I'd love for your opinion on what should we do?

[00:34:08] Bill Amos: Huh, man. I.

mean, I think it's a, I think REII like is a big problem. Um, you know, and the, the amount of concentration that a lot of medium and large size brands have with REI is very concerning. REI can account for 30, 40, 50% of a brand's revenue, which is such a dangerous place to be. I think, like I would, that would keep me up at night.

, And then REI, I mean, having hemorrhage $630 million or whatever it is over the last three years, it's like, how long can they do? Like, I don't fully understand because of their co-op model, like how their financials work. Like I don't know how they funded $630 million in losses and I would assume that 2025 has not been going all that that great for [00:35:00] them either.

So, you know, are we gonna see. Another big loss there. And what happens if REI goes out of business, which I don't know, like it a year ago, that would've been like, ridiculous thing to say, but I, , I, who knows? , That, that would have huge impact on, on everything. But I don't know, because , I think this is just a symptom of like our broader economy and consolidation and monopolies , and all that sort of stuff.

All the incentives are there for, , these companies to just get bigger and to, to consolidate and, and all that. And , it's a cross, cross industry. , And that's just our economy now. And it's unfortunate and it's really bad. I think it's, you know, when we look at. At, at things like income inequality and all, all that sort of stuff.

It's just, it's terrible. You have all the wealth is being funneled up to a handful [00:36:00] of, , of people and, , maybe people to look at now. It's like something like, , the vast majority of the consumer spending that's propping up the economy now is done by the upper 10% of income earners.

'cause the lower 90% is struggling to eat, , with inflation and all that sort of stuff. , I think there's a lot of broader issues and the economy that have to be addressed. It's not just an outdoor industry thing, obviously. And , I think that the industry is just gonna follow whatever happens, whatever trends happen over the next, uh, the next decade and, and that's gonna be it.

I don't know if there's anything that we could really. Do, , aside from , if you're kind of one of those people like me that, that really wants to support small brands and, and what they do, then just don't buy shit from the big companies. Don't buy stuff from REI, you know, if you like your local retailer, buy stuff from that.

I mean, that's, [00:37:00] that's all we can do. I don't know. I don't know what else there

[00:37:02] Christian Rawles: Yeah, it's interesting. I think that there, it just reinforces the importance of small independent retailers and small, independent brands, right? Because it's, I, I think that's the lesson that's kind of quickly coming to the surface of this is , yeah, it's unfortunate that we kinda get past the point.

It's only in hindsight that we realize like, oh, oh, oh, actually we, that's what made this special. We need this. And so. I think amends will be made and corrections will have to happen over time. I don't think it's too late. I have hope for that thing, but I guess for me it reinforces like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Specialty retail is super important from a brand perspective. The big brands need to focus on that. Right. To kind of go back to your REI point, if all your eggs, and I can speak from experience all, when I owned my own brand, all my eggs, 40% of my eggs were in one retailer's basket, and it was sketchy as hell.

, And thankfully got that right sided and everything was good, but it's, it's rough when, you know, if [00:38:00] that customer gets, uh, a cold, you are in trouble.

[00:38:03] Bill Amos: Yep. And I think a lot of people are kind of don't understand just how concentrated a lot of brands are in REI like big brands.

[00:38:13] Christian Rawles: yeah,

[00:38:14] Bill Amos: yeah,

[00:38:15] Christian Rawles: yeah, yeah. No, I, it, I mean, and that's why they, that's why they get the, the terms and the favors and all those things, and the special releases and all that stuff. Yeah. So I guess long story short. We need to support the small, independent retailers and small brands. Um, I'd love to get more, I've had some independent retailers on this podcast.

I'd love to have more to get their weight in on this too as well. But, uh, yeah, it's not an easy solution, but I think it's just one of those conversations that's worth continuously having over and over again. It definitely, oh, go ahead.

[00:38:43] Bill Amos: I was just gonna say it is interesting though to look at like. What's happening? I know you've had Lloyd on the podcast, like Garage growing gear is crushing it. Like a lot of the, you know, there's small brands that are doing well, especially in ultralight, backpacking and all that sort of stuff. So I [00:39:00] feel like there is this kind of like other ecosystem that's actually doing okay within the outdoor industry.

And it might not be like, you know, what we generally think of as the outdoor industry, but , I feel like there are some like good things happening in green shoots and all that sort of stuff,

[00:39:16] Christian Rawles: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, , thanks for bringing that up. I think the, what's going on? Garage, garage grown gear and ultralight in general. If we're seeing it in trail running, though, I feel like those numbers are a little bit inflated. I can never trust

[00:39:27] Bill Amos: yeah.

[00:39:28] Christian Rawles: Um, but there's, there's definitely these niche sports that are really, like pack rafting for instance.

It's like that thing didn't exist 15, 20 years ago. Now it's like a s it's a sizable mover, right? So I think that there's things that are happening, it's just, , can the speed at which they grow and come up, , match kind of the needs that are, are necessary for everybody to have a stable, , industry. , I was gonna say that the, there's an interesting conundrum between , direct to consumer is super expensive.

Like it just doesn't, it's hard to make it work. You've gotta get that perfect alignment of stars for the, for the [00:40:00] formula to work. While at the same time, wholesale is super tough because it's like independent retailers are strapped. You gotta have reps to be able to make the introductions. Like there's all these things that go into it.

, Do you see a third way or do you see a way for, um, that to change? Like if you were to do it over again, you're like, oh, you know what? We, we could do it like this and that would work better.

[00:40:23] Bill Amos: Oh man. I don't know. I wish I

[00:40:27] Christian Rawles: You don't have the solutions. Damn it. Bill, what are you doing here then? I.

[00:40:30] Bill Amos: I know, um, I.

I don't know, for a while I was thinking about, okay, like how can we like directly connect with our customers? , So like even if it's just getting, we had a Sprinter Van Northwest South by Sprinter van for a while. , Okay, why don't I just drive to like Mount Hood during peak season and just like start talking to people and all that.

, Just, ways to like more directly connect with your community I think is gonna be super important. And I think like, I think the days of, you know, buying [00:41:00] meta ads and seeing any return on that are long gone at this point. , And I think that like with where everything is going with AI and all the AI slop and all that, I think there's gonna be a lot less, focus on, or , there's gonna be a lot less attention I think on social media stuff.

, It doesn't seem like it now, but I. I just think it's just gonna get worse. The algorithms are gonna get worse and stupider and trying to sell you more stuff, and people are just gonna be like, fuck this. Like I have be, I actually have better things to do than just , look at ads all day. , And so, I don't know, I'm kind of like interested.

, So my friend Bob Dalton started a, , he started a company like 10 or 15 years ago called Sackcloth and Ashes. , They're like a blanket company. But he's been working on a new app, , called local LOCL. And it's kind of like this idea of like, okay, you know, he is big into , getting off the digital stuff, which is interesting 'cause his brand was like all built on Instagram, all that sort.

Now he is like, all right, [00:42:00] this has gotten too crazy. , It's all about connecting groups that, that meet in real life, , person locally. , Yeah.

, I don't know, maybe, I think that , if you can figure out how to do that and get people to show up and, and build a community around that, that there's, , potential there.

I, I don't know. Again, that's not like really my personality though. I'm like , a, an introvert and I don't really, it's hard for me to like be in big groups of people a lot, but I know there's a lot of people that aren't, that are very extroverted, that like love talking to people and all that.

, I don't know. So events, event marketing, that sort of stuff probably, , is the way to

[00:42:34] Christian Rawles: yeah, I would agree. , I think that you're, you're hitting it like the two things that keep coming up. When I have conversations that I record like this one with people for the podcast and conversations I have with people that are not recorded, just private conversations with founders who are running businesses.

The two things that continuously that I see that are behind the successes of people are founders who are willing to step outside and tell their own story, like be out front and, and lead the story. And the second thing is in-person [00:43:00] events, like those seem to be the two things right now that are working the most.

And it makes sense because. People wanna buy from people. People want to engage with the brand story. The behind the scenes is usually more interesting than the Polish stuff, so it makes sense that that's what's happening. But like your point, that is really challenging to run a business and do all the operational things of the business while at the same time be the spoke spokesperson for the business.

Like it's really hard to do those two things. And so balancing the team and the revenue and all that stuff that it takes to do both those things is a tightrope for sure.

[00:43:36] Bill Amos: Y Yeah.

absolutely. , And , going back and thinking about wholesale or like the cost of DTC versus wholesale also, it is super expensive to try to market to wholesale customers. Also, all the travel trade shows, , sampling, like getting, , if you're running a brand making things here and, and you're trying to like, launch new products every six [00:44:00] months, it's, it's almost impossible, to have full sample sets of everything.

No factory likes making samples. A lot of that is subsidized in Asia, so, and they have their own sample making rooms and all that sort of stuff, so you can get it done. But here, that's just so difficult. So it's just . Yeah, I don't, I, I don't know what the answer is, direct stuff's so expensive.

Wholesale's so expensive. , What do you do? Yeah.

[00:44:23] Christian Rawles: A product business is hard. That's, I think, the, a good, a good takeaway from this conversation though. It's, it can be worth it. It's still worth the effort. It's just like, I think that's why we have these conversations. I mean, that's the point behind this whole podcast is like, hey, the people who are coming up and doing these things and starting things and, and or midway through the journey, it's like, um, these are the questions that you and I had 15 years ago when we had nowhere to turn to get some answers.

Or how much would you have paid to have somebody have this conversation and be like, oh shit, I'm gonna write all this down.

[00:44:54] Bill Amos: totally, yeah.

[00:44:55] Christian Rawles: Bill could learn from these conversations. And so that's the point. It's like that's, you know, rising tide, that's all boats. Let's just [00:45:00] help each other out because it is hard.

And the modern interpretation of what an entrepreneur is based around a tech entrepreneur, and that is not reality for. Things that are you making in the physical world. The, the funding isn't the same. The monthly recurring revenue is not the same. Like all these things, like the picture of the entrepreneur now is, and I think it's starting to change.

It's like we need to go back to like the farmer as the, the person we should be emulating and not the tech, uh, billionaire because we're not working in reality when we think like that. Maybe not the, maybe the farmer's not the best, but probably more to that side than to the opposite side for sure.

[00:45:44] Bill Amos: , Yeah, it's kind of interesting to follow some of the, because there is a, a movement now among some like tech investors and, and. Formerly tech people into the defense industry and, , and physical hard, , [00:46:00] hard products. And it's , so different than writing apps and , whatever that, it's interesting to see.

It'll be interesting to see like how, , if they're able to actually do it. And then also if investors stick around because the, , getting like a hundred x return on a, a manufacturing business that requires billions of dollars in CapEx. Like, I, I don't know, like if they have that, you know?

[00:46:28] Christian Rawles: Yeah, and I think our expectations is have, I mean, their expectations need to change, and that's kind of a lesson for us to, from the industry is like, well, okay. Maybe we had unreal expectations. And certainly when I talk to people who are trying to raise capital for their smaller brands, it's like, man, the expectations for an angel investor, when you're talking about a physical good in the outdoor space, like, whoa, be like, let's bring them back down to earth here.

'cause this is, there's still labor, labor of love involved, uh, with this.

[00:46:55] Bill Amos: absolutely. ,

[00:46:56] Christian Rawles: So entrepreneurship is usually a mix of what you love to do, [00:47:00] what you're good at and what you just have to do. So for you, what fell into each of those categories for you? If you could identify what you'd love to do, what you're good at doing and what you had to do, , what would you put in each of those categories?

[00:47:12] Bill Amos: oh man. , Probably like love to do, , product design, development, manufacturing, that's kind of. What I think I'm good at and what, what I actually like, enjoy. , Like I love the production side of things. I love seeing things go from raw materials to finish goes and like when a production runner line is running well and like it's, yeah, it's a beautiful thing And it, it like pushes all the right satis satisfied buttons for me. so I really like that. , And then I guess they had to do like. I don't know. I'm not good at marketing and making reels and doing all that sort of, but , I like it actually, like, it's kind of fun. But, , I think having Caleb here, he did a lot of that stuff and he's good at it. So [00:48:00] all that and then have to do definitely , but hate doing is the finance side of things.

And , I still, even at Chad and I did all our bookkeeping and I tried to bring people in to help and it ne , it never, you know, because it's a little complicated, but was never able to, so I do all the bookkeeping and, and cashflow stuff and all that, which is not what I like to do at all.

So,

[00:48:21] Christian Rawles: And so after 15 years of running these two businesses, what's the most valuable skill or mindset that you're walking away with?

[00:48:29] Bill Amos: , Man, maybe just like the confidence to like. Do to know that like, I can do anything, I guess like in a business, I, I was thinking about it, I've been thinking about it over the last couple weeks , I've pretty much done every job in apparel manufacturing, aside from production, sewing, and even I did, like in a previous job when I worked for Chilo Gear, the backpack company, I ran bar attacker for eight hours a day.

, So I've done some [00:49:00] of that. , I've run cutting, I've run, like I, I know how to engineer lines and run production efficiently and do all that sort of stuff. Done, just like all the things that like come up in day-to-day, , in the day-to-day of running a business . I just feel I've run into everything.

I know I haven't run into everything, but it feels like that. I'm not afraid of challenges and problems and having to learn new things and do all that sort of stuff. I think that's the, superpower of the entrepreneur is , okay, I have a problem. I need to figure out how to solve it and I'm gonna do whatever it takes to, to figure it out.

And , there, there might not be anybody that has had this problem, , whatever. So I need to learn how, how to do it myself and figure it out. I don't know. That makes

[00:49:45] Christian Rawles: the skilled generalist. I mean, that's what entrepreneurship is like, just being a really skilled generalist, which is great. That's wonderful. I'm sure it'll serve you well going forward. So if a younger founder came to you and said, Hey, I wanna start a US made apparel brand, what advice would you give them?

[00:49:59] Bill Amos: [00:50:00] I'd say weighed about five years,

[00:50:03] Christian Rawles: See

[00:50:04] Bill Amos: to eight

[00:50:04] Christian Rawles: wait. for the dust to settle.

[00:50:06] Bill Amos: Wait, Wait for the dust to settle.

and then, and then come talk to me. , I don't think now is a great, I mean, I, I don't know. I had like a, I had one founder call me, , a couple weeks ago and he is like just kind of getting started and, , he, , he just had like a typical like, oh my God, there's so much like, I don't know, like what to do here and all that.

, And he had a very , kind of niche product for a very specific. User group. And I was like, if you were coming to me being like, I wanna start a outdoor lifestyle apparel brand, I'd be like, no, don't, don't, just don't do that right now. But this is , Okay.

You have a market, he has like products out there being tested by, by the, , market participants.

And their feedback is good. And it's, you know, it's a, a small number of skews that are, that are really focused. I was like, yes, this is awesome. , You can keep doing this [00:51:00] and do it in a way that you're not gonna spend tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to make sure that the market's actually there then Yeah. absolutely.

, Go for it. , So I think that there, there are still like niches , that people could be successful in, , right now, but I think, Yeah. I don't know. I think it's just dependent on, . What it is and, and who the target market is, and if they have money, and if they're gonna continue to have money, , going into whatever is gonna happen over the next five, 10 years.

[00:51:30] Christian Rawles: Yeah. Doing some market validation early on. That's good. That's good advice for anybody at any stage. , Whether you're starting a business or coming out with a new product that's spend some time and effort on market validation, so that's really good. A lot of people forget about that part.

[00:51:42] Bill Amos: Yeah.

And I mean, if you can, you can do that by spending a few thousand dollars on samples and get 'em into the right, , to the right people. And , pretty quickly if you have something or if you don't. And then if, , if the initial feedback's not good, then you know, move on to something else.

[00:51:58] Christian Rawles: Yeah, that's good. Okay. [00:52:00] Well Bill, I really appreciate this. So what is next for you? You're moving out tomorrow north as Alpine is closing his doors. What's next for Bill?

[00:52:08] Bill Amos: Yeah, so I'm joining, um, a company called Spiritist Systems. , They are a, , manufacturer of military and tactical gear. , So they do a lot of, right now, currently they do a lot of, play carriers and chess rigs and pouches and, and kind of the nylon gear. , And I've been talking to them for about a year, , and they've been wanting to launch apparel for a long time, so I'll be joining them as the director of Apparels to build that program.

[00:52:37] Christian Rawles: Very cool. So you get to take all those skills that you've just honed over the last 15 years and do let somebody else, let somebody else do the marketing, sales, and finance. Nice.

[00:52:47] Bill Amos: pretty much. I mean, they're like literally is not another company that. Is like, they're great. They do, their own manufacturing currently of their nylon gear. And so they have a lot of experience with, [00:53:00] with cut and sew, , their branding is amazing. , Marketing is, is great. They're just like a top, , top of class tactical brand and , I can't, there isn't another company out there That I think could use my skills as much as, , I think that they get. , Yeah, I'm super excited

[00:53:16] Christian Rawles: That sounds like a great next chapter for you.

[00:53:19] Bill Amos: And obviously like, because of the berry amendment and all that, all made in USA and, um, yeah, so I'm, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm

[00:53:27] Christian Rawles: Nice. When's your first day?

[00:53:29] Bill Amos: Uh, Tuesday the seventh, so

[00:53:33] Christian Rawles: a week off.

[00:53:35] Bill Amos: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to, I leave Saturday. , I'm speaking at the Seams conference. That's like the, , trade organization for us. K. So factories, , that's in Spanish, Georgia. And then I drive up to Spirit on, uh, the next day and start work.

[00:53:54] Christian Rawles: Man, it's awesome that you were able to get into something that, , is like a really good Venn diagram of what you're [00:54:00] interested in, what you're good at. So congrats on that, man. I , really happy for you. Cool, bill, thanks for doing this. , Yeah, , it's been a pleasure and I'm, I hope that we still get to hear from you on a regular basis on LinkedIn with your opinions.

[00:54:13] Bill Amos: Yeah, I'm gonna try to continue posting and all that, so I'm not, I'm not going away. ,

[00:54:18] Christian Rawles: You just, you need to find another brand that you'll be the Mindfulness ambassador for

[00:54:22] Bill Amos: I know, right?

[00:54:24] Christian Rawles: Ambassador for the outdoor industry.

[00:54:27] Bill Amos: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:28] Christian Rawles: Alright, Villa. Appreciate it, man.

[00:54:30] Bill Amos: Awesome. Thank you.