KORE Outdoors Podcast

Aaron Lutze
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Core Outdoors Podcast. My name is Christian Rawls. This episode is a conversation with Aaron Luzi. Aaron is a full-time content creator. He has a mountain biking YouTube channel called Super Rider, and he's the co-host of the Second Nature Podcast. Prior to focusing on content, Aaron spent 12 years at Red Bull as an athlete, manager, and a field marketing manager.

I wanted to have this conversation with Aaron because he has an interesting perspective on how brands and creators should be working together to create compelling content. As you hear in this conversation, Aaron is focused on delivering a ton of value and building a community. Two things to focus on if you want long-term success.

But before we jump into the conversation, I wanna let you know that we are a couple of weeks away from announcing the lineup of speakers and presenters at this year's Core Summit. The Core Summit is a two day conference, unlike any other in the outdoor industry. It's the only event where early stage founders, seasoned veterans, designers, retailers, and all points in between get together to connect and learn from each other.[00:01:00]

To learn more about the summit and the work that Core does, check out core outdoors.org. The link is in the show notes. And now please enjoy this conversation with Aaron Luzi.

Christian: , there's a number of reasons why I wanted to bring you on the show. I mean, you're, you're building an outdoor media company, it seems like, I, I would just say that I'm projecting that on you, but it seems like you're building an outdoor media company.

You're a solopreneur in a lot of ways. You're kind of going at it alone. You're a supporter of challenger brands. Actually, I, I don't know if you and Dylan created that term, challenger Brands, but I'm attributing it to you.

Aaron: we'll take it though. We'll take it. No,

Christian: Because I think I've used it in almost every podcast I've recorded. I use the term Challenger brand, and I have, I have given you attribution, so, uh, I'm, you're gonna continue to get the Challenger brand.

Aaron: gladly take it. I think we, I think we pulled it from some, some article or, or something at some point. I feel like it's relatively common now when people are talking about stuff. I was actually having a really interesting conversation with Elisa from Tarek about this, and she referenced Adidas as a Challenger brand.

And I was [00:02:00] like, what are you talking about? Like, you guys are like one of the big brands. She's like, not with Tarek, like we consider

Christian (3): Hmm.

Aaron: be a Challenger brand. And she's like, I appreciate, like you've been around Adidas long enough to know the history and how long we've actually been doing outdoor stuff, which is true, like they've been doing outdoor stuff for ages, but like in their minds it, you know, they still feel like they haven't gotten the traction that they deserve for all the effort.

Christian (3): How do you define challenge brand for yourself? Like what? Like when you're talking, thinking about it, what do you what, how do you define it?

Aaron: I mean, I would just say the Challenger brand is someone who is sort of really gaining a lot of traction in the short term that is sort of taking market share away from the big dogs like Nike, you know? Um, and I think that, you know, probably the challenger brands are gonna hold onto that title for a longer. Then they sort of deserve, you know, like Hoka and like the fact that you would consider even Lulu to be a Challenger brand feels weird. Like they're making billions of dollars but they get lumped in all the time because for a little bit [00:03:00] there at least they were trying to do footwear. Um, so for me it's like, I guess that the idea of the Challenger brand is somebody who is taking a big bite out of the incumbents like the Nikes.

And again, that's where the Adidas thing had me scratching my head. 'cause I'm like, you guys are established, you know, where, you know on has not been around that long. Hoka has not been around that long and they're actually really making like big strides forward. So that's sort of the ones that are like big enough to be doing damage to the incumbents, but not so big that, you know, people are putting a target on their back yet.

Christian (3): Sure.

Aaron: kind of sweet spot between the two.

Christian (3): Right.

Aaron: That's how I think about it at least

Christian (3): But Hoka and on definitely have targets on their backs now.

Aaron: now,

Christian (3): Yeah, yeah. But they spent a, they spent a great period of time when they were just doing their thing.

Aaron: I'm so scratching my head on that new Roger Federer Elmo ad. Have you seen that

Christian (3): No.

Aaron: There's an ad that on obviously put a lot of money in licensing into to get Elmo from Sesame Street into a video with [00:04:00] Roger Federer where they're like, oh, it's not qc, it's on. And Elmo's like, what are you talking about? that's the, that's the ad. It's just like an sort of like, Hey, can you make it so people know that we're on and not qc? 'cause the O looks like a QI was like, you wasted a lot of money to, to just like make sure people knew your name. Like if you were gonna license Elmo, why wouldn't you talk about, I don't know, the new kids line of shoes that you have coming out.

Like that feels like a more relevant spend. Right?

Christian (3): on

Aaron: I think if you're a challenger brand, you're not immune from missteps. I.

Christian (3): Def. I, let's just be clear. I don't think anybody's, uh, everybody can make a misstep.

Aaron: True. Fair

Christian (3): Yeah. Um, so I'm curious about what the story is. So you're kind of an OG trials rider and you, you've had this production company basically making VHS tapes and distributing VHS tapes of, [00:05:00] of the behind the scenes niche culture of, uh, trials, mountain biking, and then you leave that, you have this illustrious career at Red Bull.

Then you go to Aura Ring, but then now you give it all up and you come back to being a content creator.

Aaron: That's always the joke. My buddy Eric Porter, who has also uh, been in the mountain bike industry for a long time, has been running a YouTube channel as well. Always gives me a hard time. He's like, so you were traveling around the world with your friends filming mountain bike videos, living the dream, and then you stopped doing that, and then you got a real job and then you quit that real job so that you could travel around the world making bike videos with your friends, like, okay. Uh, I think it was, you know, the thing that's most important is that the, the ability to create content and to edit and to film has sort of just always been an arrow in the quiver. And one of the things that I learned at Red Bull was like, you just need enough information to be dangerous. I [00:06:00] will never be the best filmmaker an Alex Rankin or a Clay Porter, or anybody on that level.

I'm just not that good. But I have enough information to be dangerous when it comes to making content. And I think that, especially in this era of YouTube, where you don't have to have the most polished thing as long as you're developing and delivering value to the audience, like that's what actually matters more than what camera are you using? You know, are you doing rack focus on your bike? Are you getting enough B roll? Like that stuff is helpful but not necessary when you can now really just like bring value to people at scale using this platform. So it, in a way, it's sort of like a return to form of, oh, I found a way that I could do this again in a meaningful way.

And there's sort of like a business model that exists that is sort of exponential and unlimited if you play it out to the maximum level. And so, know, part of the reason why I picked up the camera again and why I [00:07:00] started doing it I was at Red Bull, I was pushing a lot of my athletes to create content to become podcasters or YouTube, or just really putting a finer point on what they were creating. And at a certain point, you kind of have to put your money where your mouth is to be like, you know what? You guys are the most elite athletes in the world and you probably have the easiest path to success with content, and it's specifically YouTube or podcast because people already care about you. So if you don't believe me, I'm nobody.

Like I'm, I'm corporate guy over here. Yeah. I have like a skillset that I developed when I was 18, but, but also like I don't have a following anywhere. Watch this. And then in a couple years I'm at a hundred thousand subscribers starting from zero, where none of them had started from zero. So part of it was to sort of prove a point, of it was actually just to learn as much as I possibly could.

Because, the best advice I give you in content creation is like, [00:08:00] make a hundred videos get 1% better every single time you make a video. And by that hundredth video, you're gonna be in great shape. And so part of it also was not only kind of like showing them, but also learning enough that I could come back around and share that insight with the athletes that were serious.

So now I can have a really high level discussion with an athlete being like, here's how I would structure this. Here's how I would develop your content strategy based on my five years of focused effort on YouTube. These are the elements that I would really be. Thinking about when it comes to crafting your story, producing your content, sharing it out, getting the maximum value out of it, and then also with that rebel background, here's how I'd be putting it in front of sponsors and how I think it could dramatically impact your career.

So I kind of took a long way around on that whole thing, but I see a ton of value in content. But I also just picked up my camera because I wanted to learn even more than I had already learned. Like I got the basics of editing and shooting and all that stuff down back in the day. But now that there are platforms and different ways to [00:09:00] distribute that content, there's an even bigger opportunity.

And uh, I was actually talking to somebody else recently. He said, uh, content is king, but distribution is queen. And you have so many different ways to distribute that content now and reach audiences and build a community. There's something really exciting there for a lot of people to sort of unlock. And that's the learning curve that I've been on recently.

Christian (3): Did you start the, so did you start the YouTube channel? I mean, I think originally it was your name, it had your name, your personal name, kind of attached to the YouTube channel. At what point did you say, okay, actually no, no, no. I'm gonna create a brand around this.

Aaron: It's actually sort of a funny story. Originally the channel was called Lutsy Time. I don't know why. I just wanted to have a name for the channel instead of just being my name. I felt weird about that at first, although maybe I shouldn't have. And I was having lunch with Dylan Bowman and he had gone through some rebranding for his media stuff.

You know, he originally started out with a podcast called The Well and then he launched [00:10:00] Pillars and then that eventually turned into free trail. And so we, you know, had always talked about rebranding, re resetting, and kind of building off these platforms. And the thing that I actually wanted to do the most with my channel in sort of the original vision, because I started off in trials, which is a very small sport.

But of the things that I wanted to do was bring back this TV show. I. And basically the TV show was this Japanese show and there was a segment within the show called Super Rider, and I wanted to bring back Super Rider because I thought that would play really well on YouTube. Now, if you fast forwarded this piece of content from the nineties into 2025, it would absolutely smash. And guess what? There's a skate version of it called Caso, K-A-S-S-O. That's basically exactly that. It's like Ninja Warrior, but on skateboarding, and that's what Super Rider was, it was Ninja Warrior. But on bikes, you'd have all these crazy courses and people that have to ride through 'em. [00:11:00] So a big reason why I rebranded as Super Rider was not necessarily to create a brand for my stuff, but it was the intention of I wanna bring back this show.

This is super important to me, and if I accomplish only one thing, it's to bring this into reality. I want this show to come back. 'cause when I was coming up as a rider, I desperately wanted to be on that show. So now what? What if I've got this tutorial channel where IPI teach people to ride? What if I could make the show happen? And then people would watch the show, go back and watch the tutorials. And then what would happen if like season five, somebody saw season one, went back into the tutorials, learned to ride, and then competed in season five. How sick would that be and how impactful would that be for the sport of trials?

And I think one thing that connects every single trials rider specifically is that we all desperately want people to care about our sport. Like, it's not, it's not about sharing the sport, it's that we want people to care about the sport [00:12:00] and yes, absolutely to get into the sport, but don't know, like it's such a cool thing to be able to essentially do magic with your bike.

And, uh, I guess, I don't know, we're just a bunch of like nerdy magicians, just like desperately hoping that other people care about it,

Christian (3): Is Super Rider. The, the, I don't know, is it a game show that's called a game show? Is, is that still the dream?

Aaron: I would love to, to bring it back. And we actually did have a deal in place. Like we, we worked with Red Bull,

Christian (3): I.

Aaron: was, you know, handed over. Like we did everything to get it all dialed in. And then literally at the last moment we had the production team picked out, we had the budget assigned, everything was set. And then they pulled the budget at the last second. We were having like meetings every single day and then all of a sudden they canceled the meeting. And then I didn't get an email response the next day and I didn't get a text the next day. And I was like, oh, that's it, that's it. And sure enough, like a week later, dude finally calls me back.

He's like, I've been dreading this phone call, dude. I'm so [00:13:00] sorry. basically what had happened, the Bull used to do the World Cup downhill live stream. And then the UCI, I don't know the exact story, but the UCI basically sold the rights to discovery instead of keeping Red Bull in the mix, which a lot of people have opinions on.

I'll leave that where it is. But basically, red Bull had all this money that they were gonna put into the World Cup, and then they were kind of like, well, now what? And I was just like right place, right time. Like I got an idea, you know, your number one mountain bike content, highest performing of all time is trials.

Danny McCaskill, Fabio Whitmer to Kubo. Like your number one videos are all the same sport. What if you developed a show based on that? And they're like, oh, that's a good idea. And so that was sort of my in to have that discussion. And of course I knew all these guys because I've been working with them for the past 12 years. But, uh, I think the thing that we ran up against, they were like, well, we don't want our top [00:14:00] guys competing against a bunch of, you know, other people and then potentially getting crushed, um, by the next generation of riders. So. The fact that there wasn't really a window for Red Bull athletes to compete in a potential Red Bull TV program basically became the one giant question mark.

And I think ultimately, if I think critically of why it didn't happen and why, you know, they had other stuff that they were working on too, like hard line. Um, they added locations to it and they built that out even more, which was definitely the right call. And they put out resources into other bike things since then too. But, uh, if I had to be really critical of like why it maybe was an easier call to pull from the budget, that was probably it.

Christian (3): Yeah, well, I hope to see Super Rider one day out there. You know, the, the show, the, the contest. It's a great idea.

Aaron: the meantime it's a great way to, you know, it, I think it still works as a mountain bike tutorial channel and as sort of the rest of the content that I'm doing with it in that. You could become a [00:15:00] super rider learning these techniques and applying them, and now we're doing a bit more travel stuff to show where else you could ride.

So I think it's still applicable. It's, and, and I think that's it. Like Super Rider is sort of general. Um, and we had some struggle trying to sell merch because a lot of people that follow the channel are sort of beginner, intermediate riders, and they felt kind of sheepish wearing a shirt that said Super Rider because they hadn't yet become Super Riders.

They were still learning the basics. So I'm not really sure what to do with that one. But, uh, I do think overall the, you know, I'm gonna continue whether or not we get to do the show, I'm gonna stick with the name for I guess.

Christian (3): Yeah, it's a great, I mean, now that you say it to you also, it does have a Ja, I can see why they, it sounds like a Japanese name. It sounds like a, a name that Japanese people would come up for an English show. An English name for a Japanese show. It's great. It's a good name.

Aaron: It's a lot easier to pronounce than my last name. Most people can't say luzi for some reason, or at least on the first try. [00:16:00] So, um, uh, you know, super Rider, it's pretty hard to mess that one up.

Christian (3): Yeah, it's good. Um, kind of turning the focus a little bit more on the idea of like challenger brands or up and coming brands or whatever you want to call them. I tend to, I tend to categorize challenger brands is more of the up and comers. Maybe not quite challenger yet, but, so for, for those kind of up and comer brands, um, content is super important to them, right?

Like, just how do you create content? What's the best way to create content? Um, you need, it's like the machine needs this content kind of forever, hamster wheel style content creation. So what do you think are the best practices for small brands or challenger brands to work with content creators and to have like a win-win out of it?

Right.

Aaron: I do think there's a really, I. Big opportunity around brands connecting and building long-term relationships with both content creators and their communities. And I think what's important about content creators is exactly that. [00:17:00] That was my initial insight at Red Bull too, because it didn't come from sports.

It actually came from gaming. I saw one of the gamers that I managed turn on his computer and 5,000 people instantly showed up. And he did a fundraiser one day and raised $70,000. And it was like, whoa. There's a lot of people that care about what this guy has to say and what he has to think, and this community is locked in on the things that he's locked in on. So what would it look like if an athlete could do that, and how could they build that? And of course, content's the answer to that. They build community through content. So I would think about it as a brand or who are the. People that I could work with that represent a large community, that align so perfectly with my brand, that a partnership actually makes sense.

Where we're relevant to them, we're relevant to their community, and by working really closely with them over a long period of time, we could really build something special. You see now happening where big creators, you know, Mr. B Logan Paul, [00:18:00] KSI, Ryan Rehan are putting out their own products. And then those are getting distribution and selling and they're earning money off of that. I think that this trend of creators developing and putting their own products out is only going to get stronger as these creators learn how to make their own stuff. But not every content creator wants to do engineering and QC and customer service and everything like that. so I think smart, smaller brands can find people that represent their values, represent their audience really well, and build a meaningful partnership that will last a long time.

And I think that probably the biggest mistake that's happening now is that a lot of brands are big and small, are trying to find these quick wins where they can like get awareness really quickly and get in front of an audience one time or two times, or kind of testing the waters. the real magic actually happens when you have a developed relationship where those athletes or content creators [00:19:00] sort of represent that brand.

If you think about Red Bull as an example, surely not a challenger brand by any means, but think about how the of identity of that athlete exists with Red Bull. How many Red Bull athletes do you know who have only been on Red Bull for one month or for one year for that matter? Right? Most Red Bull athletes that you can come up with off the top of your head right in this second have been on Red Bull for over a decade. And I don't think that that's a mistake or that that's, you know, a, what am I trying to say? I think that there's a reason for that and I think that locking in long-term with somebody is a meaningful, valuable thing. And I think that it's very intentional that Red Bull does that. They spend a bit of time on the front end, and I can tell you this because I've done it myself, spend a lot of time on the front end really finding the right fit, the right partnership, and developing the relationship with that person to feel confident that like, yeah, when we sign this person, it's gonna go, it's gonna work and [00:20:00] it's gonna work for a long time because we see what their competitive career is gonna do.

But we also have ideas for other stuff that we wanna do with them. I think any Challenger brand could take that same approach of who are the handful of people that we could work with over a long period of time that's so perfectly aligned with us. That it would make sense for us to make content with them for a long, long time, and it would be valuable to both us and to their community and to the creator. You're looking for that like perfect overlap in, in the Venn diagram. And I think that the, the content sphere right now, I think a lot of people are scratching their heads like, oh, we gotta just test this and see what happens. And you know, I've been in a lot of these discussions lately where it's like, we just want to test, you know, one integration with you.

And it's like, I mean, you can, but it's not gonna, it's not gonna give you any real data. Like you Yeah, people will click out of curiosity. But if they saw that you were backing me for a long period of time and I'm constantly talking about how awesome this is and, and not only like. [00:21:00] I'm reading off whatever you have to say.

I don't think that's it. I think it's like I'm talking about the things that we're doing together. You know, it's not like Dylan was never talking about like, oh, I drink Red Bull all the time, and it's so great. It was, Hey, I did this project with Red Bull and like, check out this thing that we did together.

Here's this thing I'm doing with them and, and here's this, and, and branding is obviously present, but like there's depth to it. Instead of like, Hey, read this, or tell your community about us. I just think there's a way to, to do more with less and make it more meaningful. And I think that people miss the meaningful part of the partnership when it comes to not just finding the people to work with, but also the execution itself.

Christian (3): Maybe it's something like we, we encounter ambassador marketing or influencer marketing or content, uh, creation more from a performance marketing standpoint as opposed to a brand marketing standpoint where the description you just gave of Dylan Bowman and Red Bull is more of like a brand. This is brand [00:22:00] marketing, right?

We're we're playing the long term game. We're trying to establish community. Whereas I think sometimes we think of a transactional, like when we work with a content creator, it's gonna be transactional. It's like. You do these three things, I get these three things and that's how it's gonna work.

Aaron: It's funny though, right, because if you're working with a content creator that you respect, clearly they can make content well, and so why couldn't they make brand and performance content for you? It's not like they can only make one. I mean, any content creator that's gotten to this point that they're having a discussion with, a brand of partnering up and working together has an idea of how to reach audiences at scale, and whether it's performance marketing or brand marketing, I think they're capable, and sure, you could work together to get there, but yeah, it's, I don't, I don't understand why, why a brand wouldn't under, they wouldn't grasp that this person is capable of making content about just about anything at this point, if they've made it to the table in a negotiation. [00:23:00] And we, we picked them out as a good fit for us. wouldn't they be able to make both performance and brand marketing stuff? And that's one of the things that I've run into of like, Hey, can I also talk to your, your meta ads team? Can I talk to these people or can we also make this kind of content? You know, I recently pitched something where I was like, Hey, I, I love this integration idea.

I love what you're trying to do here, but I want to tell this bigger story about using your platform and, and developing this thing out. And they're like, oh, we didn't think about that. And I was like, there's a really cool content story that could unfold over the course of a year, and this is sort of what that looks like.

So I think there's really intentional ways to move forward. And I think you have to take a step back and realize that the reason why you're in this conversation in the first place is that this person has established themselves as someone who not only is maybe good at a sport, but is capable of translating their thoughts into a medium that lots of people can access.

Christian (3): I think you touched on something right there. You said the word story, and I think that's a key component of is that we, we need to be able to have the [00:24:00] time and space to be able to tell stories and that take stories, take time and space, right? So you can't, it can't just be a a one and done or a few and done type of thing.

You need that time to kind of breathe, let it breathe and roll out.

Aaron: and there's, there's research to back this up. I'm not just like saying stuff, you know, it, there's research that basically says you need to see a message 12 times before it kicks in. And I think that's why, you know, these like test marketing cases just don't work because it's like, well, yeah, I'm probably not the 12th time they've seen this message.

I'm the first and that's great, but let me also be the 12th. Let me build this out. Let's let it breathe. Let's turn it into something that's valuable. Because yeah, imagine if you did anything one time, you're never gonna get good at it. You know, you're never really gonna like, make an impact if you, if you really commit and have intention of, you know, succeeding with this thing. There was a great quote that we talked about on Second Nature not too long ago. It said Trying is having an intentional to fail. just go for it. Like lock in, be intentional. Let it [00:25:00] develop. Really. Yeah, maybe it means that you're pickier with which creators you're gonna start working with, but also find the meaning, find the depth, find somebody that can really tell that story and spend a little extra time getting there.

And I think it would be worth it as opposed to like just, you know, shotgun approach and hoping for the

Christian (3): Yeah, the spray and pray. I've heard you talk about, um, the idea of latching onto a user group, and maybe latching is not the right word, but partnering with a kind of up and coming user group to be able to build. Your brand around, and that's something you did. It sounds like it's something you did when you were at a Aura ring, uh, with CrossFitter.

So I was wondering if you just chat a little bit about that idea of finding, I mean, you can, you can definitely see it in play right now in trail running. You can see it in hunting, you can see it in these different categories where it's like this thing's on the rise and people are kind of moving that way.

What, what does that look like and how did you use that?

Aaron: Well, there's two different approaches to this whole thing. Uh, I think you're right in that there have been brands that have been [00:26:00] successful over time that have, you know, found their, their communities as the communities are sort of exploding. So CrossFit's a great example of that. The other thing that I would also reference is this idea of the entry point consumer. The entry point consumer is someone you can access at literally any time in any category you're trying to reach. And in fact, that's a big way to really kind of be the first, first voice or the first opportunity to, to speak to these people that are coming in. So for example, in mountain biking, I'm speaking to the entry point consumer because I'm talking to people who are just getting into the sport or are just starting to take it seriously or you know, kind of just wanting to develop their skillset. And I will be the first teacher for them. And yeah, maybe they'll go into some other stuff later down the line. They'll, they'll get really into racing or free ride or whatever. But I'm their entry point into the sport. And I think that there's a lot of trust that comes with that. There's a lot of value that comes with that.

There's a lot of, you know, identity that [00:27:00] comes with like, oh, I learned from this person and I think. Even at Red Bull, the entry point consumer was the person that they handed. You know how you got your first Red Bull? If you ask a lot of people like, where did you have your first Red Bull? A lot of people will say like, oh, this person like drove a mini Cooper around and they handed one to me and I tried it and I, I couldn't sleep.

And I, I went home and cleaned my house and you know, whatever. That's an entry point consumer the first time you had this experience and then that experience is tied to that brand for a long, long time. So I think about that in a content sense of if you're just getting into mountain biking and I was the first person to unlock how to lift your front wheel or whatever, you're gonna keep coming back to me to see what else you can learn and where else you can develop. And there's a ton of value in that. And I'm not competing against that many people because I'm the first person to introduce you. Whereas within the sport of mountain biking, there's a lot of people at the top of the mountain doing like the gnarliest things, but they're fighting against everyone else that's doing the gnarliest stuff. [00:28:00] this idea of being at the entry point, I think has even more value because at the top end, yes, you're aspirational, but at this entry point you are getting, you know, trust from these people. You're getting identity, you're getting engagement, and I think that's where a lot of brands could actually get more for it. So that's, that's one side of it. The other side of it is, can you identify a, a growing group? And I think that one is more trend spotting that could be a little bit harder to get. And it's not always happening. I mean, CrossFit, now there's high rocks, right? That's the next one that's kind of coming around. But these trends don't necessarily show up, um, you know, day in and day out. So you gotta be really paying attention. And, and there's not necessarily, there is sometimes a first mover of advantage, but it's not guaranteed. I mean, for every CrossFit that's out there, there's probably like a, you know, P 90 XVHS or DVD tape sitting around.

So it's not a guaranteed thing. But I think that the thing that you look for is this community engagement. One of [00:29:00] the things that CrossFitters do really well is share what they know with other people, whether it comes to nutrition, their workouts, you know, what gear they're using, whatever else. And I think that the communication between those people in that community is the most important thing to kind of harness.

And if you can. At that kind of sweet spot between a trend that's rising in a community that's, that's communicating on a regular basis, then there's some magic to be had there.

Christian (3): Do you think we're seeing the similar thing in trail running? I just, as a outsider to trail running, I'm, I mean, I know that it's not necessarily being, it's all anecdotal in the sense that like year over year sales, it's, it went up by 6% I think the number was, but that's basically 'cause of price increases.

It's not necessarily, we're not selling more shoes, but anecdotally it feels like, my God, my dentist is now a trail runner. Like it's happening. It's everywhere. Is that something that you, do you like, how do you relate that to the kind of the CrossFit of, uh, maybe a decade ago?

Aaron: Yeah, I, you could definitely see it. You're right. [00:30:00] Anecdotally, it feels like people are sort of aging out of pounding their, their knees on the road and, and switching to like softer trails and stuff that feels, as someone who's about to turn 45, that definitely feels very, very relevant. Um, and I, I do think like there is an opportunity to be there to meet people there.

And you see a lot of brands kind of pushing into the space or trying to become relevant to both trail and ultra running. And I think there's definitely something there. Where is the community coming together? Is it in the Free Trail Pro membership where they've got a Slack channel where people are all talking about stuff? Is it at the races? Certainly the participation is really high in these events, and we're seeing similar stuff happen in gravel. biggest question is gonna be where are these people congregating and where are they? You know, where are they exchanging information? And if you can be in that place, one thing that I think is sort of a struggle is with you have these places where people are physically coming together week in and week out, [00:31:00] where the frequency of that for say gravel racing or for trail running is not as great.

Maybe you go to three or four races a year. So that'd be my one push on that. Or what's the frequency in which these people are coming together to engage in this activity? Is it enough to make it, to make the communication grow? And if they aren't coming in together, how are they communicating and how are they spreading that in insight and information?

So, um, yeah, the, the, the, the group of people doing it is growing but also congruent to that needs to be the communication.

Christian (3): Brings up a good point 'cause something I wanna talk to you about was you, you spent a few, a few years, I think early on at Red Bull and Field Marketing, which is essentially, from what I understand, bringing people together around Red Bull.

Aaron: Yes. It's, uh, giving a, a local face to a global brand is how they kind of teed it up.

Christian (3): I like it. Um, it seems like, kind of similar to what we were just talking about of the events, bringing people together. We see this in run clubs. It looks like, I [00:32:00] heard like run clubs are giving like Tinder a run for its money on, on in dating apps. 'cause it's like, oh, it does go to a run club. It's, you have a higher, better odds, um, of finding a, a good match.

Um, what did you learn from field marketing and, and kind of those live events and where do you think that's going and kind of the importance that plays in brand building? I.

Aaron: Yeah. You know what's funny now that I think about it, uh, my first official time meeting my wife was at, I used to run with the hash house Harriers in San Francisco, and my first actual time meeting her in person was at the hash. I invited her out, which was, don't know best or worst idea ever, uh, to take her to an event like that.

But we actually did meet technically at a run club. We met through friends, but then that, so

Christian (3): See run clubs. It's where it's where you, it's the place to go to meet your spouse.

Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. It, it worked. Um, I, you know, and I think the magic there was that although we had been introduced beforehand, we actually spent an hour talking to each other in a pretty low stress environment where, you know, [00:33:00] if she didn't like me, she could have just run away.

Christian (3): Stop the tire. Shoe and s catch. Catch up with you later.

Aaron: Yeah. I, um, I'm, I'm, I need you to, to ask the question again, 'cause I, I can go in about 80 different directions on field marketing, um, but what specifically?

Christian (3): Yeah, similar to the idea of bringing people together, like the importance of if you're gonna build a brand and you're gonna build, let's say a challenger brand, you need to be able to build a community and best you gotta take that community offline at some point. You gotta bring them together at some point.

So I'm just curious, it didn't even have to be what you learned from, from time field marketing with Red Bull, but more like what do, what do you see and like what do you see the advantage of and the importance of, and then literally like the nuts and bolts of how can brands do this effectively and what does that look like?

Aaron: Oh, I've got so many thoughts on

Christian (3): Let's go.

Aaron: to organize them. The thing that's the most important to me as a field marketer is this concept of the double secret handshake. So the double [00:34:00] secret handshake is how can you get in somewhere where no one else can through the relationships that you've built? And when I got dropped into any market that I was. Living in and working in, I would instantly try to figure out where are the double secret handshakes in the culture that I'm in? Is it a location? Is it a relationship? Is it an event? Is it an athlete? Who is it and what is it? So I would try to mark out like kind of these three white whales, right?

Like if I could do this, this, and this, I'll be incredibly successful within San Francisco, within Cincinnati, Ohio, wherever I ended up Portland, Oregon now. And if I can do, if these three things are true, then I'll be successful. And in a lot of different cases, and in every case it was about amplifying what was already there.

It wasn't about me bringing my agenda to San Francisco or Cincinnati or to Portland. It was about understanding what the city cared about and how could I leverage [00:35:00] what Red Bull was doing to make it better. And it came through the relationships of the people that we met. And those conversations were always, how do we add value? It wasn't, Hey, we have an initiative as a brand and we want you to participate. It was, what are you working on? What's, what's exciting to you? What do you, what do you think needs to happen in this city? What would be the cool thing? And that was the white whale, right? What is the thing that I could help unlock that would just like open this city up or open up this opportunity for these people and really mean something? if you have this mindset as opposed to, how do I impose my will on this market, you ultimately will be successful. And I think it takes a lot of introspection to figure out what are the things that matter to the city and to the people here and to the sort of, you know, they called them like opinion leaders, right?

The people that are really leading the charge. How do you jump in with them, build a relationship, build trust so that you can have conversations like, [00:36:00] what's important to you and how can I help? If you do those things, the rest kind of comes together. And once you do that one time, chances that you'll be able to do it another time are pretty good because that person that's hyper connected in one category is probably connected to somebody else who's hyper connected in another category.

So your ability to sort of leapfrog through different scenes and areas around town in the field just get stronger and stronger. The more value you bring to people. And when you do put on the event with the right people, or it doesn't even need to be an event, but when you do this thing with the people that matter and people see that, it gives you even more power to be able to do this thing. I was explaining it to someone the other day, it's almost like in Star Wars is like the force, right? Like this thing that's around us in an, uh, you know, all the time. How do you harness it to, to create something that didn't exist previously? it really came down to like all these amazing people live in this [00:37:00] city.

How do I harness all of that to do something really special that's never been done? And it never was really about like, ah, I know, let's drop a bucket of cash on everyone. It was just like really getting to the root of like, what do you care about and how can we work together to make that thing come true?

And a lot of times it was like, oh, I'm trying to get access to this thing. And you're like, oh, actually I have that contact. Let me get it for you. And then it was really about like putting these things together because you have access to the force of the city. And it was just about connecting dots more than anything.

And when you are someone who's bringing value, the number one thing that you're doing is just connecting dots. Like, oh, this is valuable, this is valuable. If I put these two things together, all of a sudden we've got something really special here. And a lot of the times, it wasn't necessarily that first connection, but it was like the second or third effect from that.

Like these two started working together and then this opened up and then we put these guys together with this, and then we had this. So I [00:38:00] think it all comes back down to like, how do you bring value to people? How do you do something that's valuable to them and meaningful to them? And it's so backwards from how so many brands think about stuff. And if they could just like, just take a deep breath, take a step back and answer the question of like, what's important to the people that we care most about and how can we play a role in that? Life would be a lot easier for these brands.

Christian (3): No kidding. Do you have an example of a favorite or effective double secret handshake?

Aaron: Um, there's a lot of d well, okay, here's the story.

Christian (3): Sure.

Aaron: maybe, maybe you're familiar, maybe not, but there was a, uh. Miller, who was like a really famous rapper, right? I put on an event when I first got to Cincinnati, Ohio, this is like the first place I ever worked for Red Bull. I didn't know anybody. I got dropped in there.

I thought, Hey, I'm from the Midwest. I could figure this out. And I put on this event where, [00:39:00] uh, we had a bunch of DJs come together for the event. And up to the event for months prior, I was kind of going out and meeting all the different DJs and getting a feel for the different styles, the DJs that we want. And my thing was always, okay, we're gonna do the event and then we're gonna take the DJs from the event and plug them into a bunch of events afterwards. So it's not just like a one-off thing. It's gonna continue to, to kind of grow from there. And one of the DJs was this guy at Clockwork and Clockwork, and I got to be really good friends because Cincinnati's a small town and, and I was also trying to plug him into all these things afterwards. And when I moved on to San Francisco, I. Clockwork came through to, um, to, had gotten like on Mac Miller's tour as like the dj right? But it was like his first year they didn't really know each other that well. And, um, we had a relationship with Red Bull, with the Golden State Warriors, and tickets to the, like our, the Red Bull box or whatever.

I had [00:40:00] these extra tickets. And so Bach work invited me out to Mac Miller's show. And this was when Mac Miller was playing to like 400 people. This is way before the Ariana Grande phase. And, uh, and it, it had been Mac, it was Mac's birthday that week. a bunch of the guys that were with him were just kind of touring around.

He like brought his buddies on tour with him and stuff. And, uh, it was his birthday and all the guys, like, nobody got him a birthday present. And he was kind of bummed. And I slid these two tickets to Clockwork he brought Mac to the Red Bull Suite for a basketball game as like his birthday present. From that point on, those two were inseparable. And then they went on to be on MTV together, and then Mac toured all over, or Mac and clockwork toured all over the world together. And, uh, probably those two tickets that, you know, cost a hundred bucks, um, made a huge difference in somebody's life. And there's no Red Bull [00:41:00] initiative for like culture marketing tied to that.

But had we wanted to do anything with either one of those guys, and even now, I could call up clockwork and call, call that favor back in, and it would be no problem. And I think so much of what I was trying to do, again in the moment, I wasn't trying to do anything other than bring value to somebody. But in the end, will he always help me out if I need something?

Absolutely. And if you do that at scale over time, yeah, sure. You're maybe not gonna hang out with famous rappers and, and have tickets to Golden State Warriors boxes. But that's not the point. The point is that like I brought him value that meant something to him long term, and he'll always come back to help me out if I ever need anything, including if I wanted to connect him with another person or whatever else.

And I think that's a good example of how, know, there's, you're not always trying to get a short term return on every single thing. If you just bring value to people and you help them out and you do what you [00:42:00] can, it always comes back.

Christian (3): That's great. There's something that I see in you just as listening to your podcast and doing some research for this conversation. Something that I see as a thread in your life is that you are, you kind of play the role of coach it seems like in a lot of ways, or you're always, it seems like you're always bringing value to the people who are important around you.

Like if you go back to even making VHS videos of your buddies on Trials Bike, that you were supporting them and helping them their career. As an athlete manager at Red Bull, you're supporting these Red Bull athletes and basically making their careers as athletes better, but also their lives and hopefully their post-career, post-professional athlete careers better.

You're doing the same thing with Super Rider. You're adding value. Same thing with super, um, second nature. I'm just curious what it is, well, not what it is about you that draws that, that that's a whole separate conversation because I love it. I think it's super important. I think the world needs more coaches.

What are you doing for yourself [00:43:00] to get that support? Like where do you get that support from? Because you're, it seems like you're giving it a lot and where you, I know, I know you're receiving a lot from it as well. A hundred percent. And that's not why you're doing it, but you are. It's coming back to you.

But as like a solopreneur, as a business person who's just like, you're trying to make this new future for yourself, it's challenging. You talk about it lots in your pockets. Business is hard

Aaron: Yeah.

Christian (3): sometimes as entrepreneurs, like we get caught in the rollercoaster or we're like riding, riding the dips. What do you do for yourself to kind of find that support?

Aaron: That's a really great question because it's, again, it comes down to the short term return on so much of this stuff is non-existent and that can be really difficult to, to think about. The long term is absolutely there and you know, 20 years of a career of bringing value to people makes me feel very confident that it always comes back and sometimes it comes back when you least expect it. [00:44:00] But if your attitude is to always bring value to people, I think that that inspires a lot of people to bring value to you. And when it does happen, it feels pretty great. Uh, recently I had somebody just open up a bunch of doors for me just based on like, Hey, I've got a couple people I'd love to introduce you to, and. Who knows what'll happen from there. But isn't that great when that happens to you? You know when somebody turns around and does it for you, it feels pretty great. And I've never really thought of it as a strategy other than just, this is what I actually want to do. I want to be the plus 1% to anybody's program, I just have this conviction that that's worth it.

And over time it'll just work out. And I think maybe that's a privileged position to be in, but also I've seen it many times work out in my favor where somebody did open a door for me, and it probably was because I brought them value five years ago or whatever. Even the second nature podcast that I'm doing with Dylan comes from [00:45:00] five years ago.

I forced him into starting a podcast. And that podcast is wildly successful now. And Dylan came back to me and said, all right, let's, let's do a podcast together. And now, you know, second nature is off to the races that came from something that I brought value for. And the business of Second Nature is still, you know, kind of up in the air a little bit, but I think it's long term headed in the right direction.

And again, goal is to bring value to the people that are on the podcast as well as the people that listen to the podcast. And I think it's gonna work out. And I just have this belief in the same way that Red Bull had that belief of if we just take care of people and bring value to them, work out. And surely there is a product that can be bought that sort of subsidizes that mindset and approach. But I don't think it's any different for, for what I do. I think that if I just bring 1% extra to everybody that I meet, even a tiny portion of that will come back to me. And that's all I really [00:46:00] need.

Christian (3): That's great. I'm not that you need it, but um. If I get a lot outta the Second Nature podcast.

Aaron: I'm glad, I mean, that's what makes it worth doing, you know, and, and just, that's the reason why I've been a field marketing manager. I've been an athlete manager, I've been a podcast host because I just cannot help myself from trying to bring value to the people around me. And what's interesting about, you know, how he said content is, you know, so important or, uh, distribution is so important, is that now we can reach thousands of people. Instead of me just working kind of hand to hand with one person, I can help thousands of people in one shot. That feels pretty great to be able to do at scale. And, I, I just feel like over, over time that hopefully we'll be able to help more and more people and bring value to more and more people. And I think there's a lot of value for the people that we put on the podcast too.

I don't think it's just a one way thing. I think that being, and hopefully it only gets more valuable, but being featured on the [00:47:00] podcast also maybe opens up some doors and, um. Put people there. And a lot of people that are on the pod are also in our Slack channel, so there's like an instant connection. But, um,

Christian (3): Yeah, the Slack channel's amazing. And, and if, if, if you're listening to this, you need to listen to Second Nature podcasts and then you need to go join the Slack channel because it is, if, um, if a lot of outdoor and bike industry is on LinkedIn, the, the people that you actually wanna talk to in those industries are on the second nature Slack channel.

So it's like the, it's a very, it's a very good niche of, um, active people who have interesting, engaging thoughts and talk about being valued. It's just constant. People are just constantly bringing value to each other, and it, so it's, it's, it's a very cool service that you've provided.

Aaron: that podcast, or sorry, the, the Slack channel came from an insight that everyone would keep hitting us up, being like, ah, I have like one more thing to add to what you were talking about. And we were just trying to figure out what is the way that we can facilitate that? How can we make it. Do we do a monthly live stream where everybody can come in [00:48:00] and kick in their 2 cents?

Do we host a Zoom call? Like what is the way to do it? the Slack channel just felt like such an obvious way of like, you know what? Most of these people are at work because they work in the industry. if we just made a channel for them to come together and share what they learned? And I do feel that although a lot of people are in competitive brands, they still bring and share value with each other and open doors for each other and, and give insights to each other.

And there's just so much value being exchanged in that, that channel right now that it just feeds the overall like, cool, this is what we should be doing. We should just be valuable

Christian (3): Yeah,

Aaron: rest will work itself out.

Christian (3): it's a meta example of, of all the things we've talked about too. I mean, like we could just take the Second Nature podcast as an example of like. How do you build a brand? How do you build content? How do you build a community? How do you bring them together? How do you add value? Like it's a, it's a case study and uh, I mean, it makes sense.

You and Dylan are very thoughtful about how you're going about doing things.

Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. It, it seems so simple when you just put it [00:49:00] out there like, oh yeah, I just bring value to people and then it works out. I mean, there is nuance to it, but ultimately it is kind of that simple. And I feel like if more people started from exactly that place, like, how can I be valuable to the world?

Right? Like, that's it. It's, it's really that simple. Like it's not over complicated. We didn't have like a big business plan for second nature, and I didn't have one for Super Rider either. We're starting to figure stuff out, but it was really just like, let's just start doing something that we think is valuable to our close circle, and if more people are in it, then cool, and we'll figure out the rest as it goes, because. there's the, the Mike Tyson quote, like, everybody's gotta plan until they get punched in the face. And I just think, yeah, let's just start doing this thing and, and then we'll figure it out. Our audience is gonna tell us what they want from us and what they don't want from us, and then we'll figure it out.

If we go in, all right, episode one, here's how we're gonna monetize this thing. Here's how we're gonna do this. Like, it's just not gonna go.

Christian (3): Yeah, it's leads to a good question. I [00:50:00] had a question for you about the Infinite game. That's something that you and Dylan will refer to every once in a while on the podcast about the the Infinite game. So I think this is a appropriate time to ask you like, what is the draw to you, what is your draw to that book, the Infinite Game, but also what do you take away from it and how are you applying it to, I mean, it sounds like you are applying all of it to your life.

I'm just curious to hear your perspective, uh, kind of the deep dive on the infinite game.

Aaron: So the Infinite Game for those who haven't read, is basically this book by Simon Sinek, and concept is essentially what decisions would you make for your business if your business was gonna be around in a hundred years? So not worrying about your year-end KPIs and stuff, all of that stuff is important. What are the decisions that you'd make if you wanted to do this kind of thing? Infinitely. And I think it's a really sustainable place to go when you're trying to build a business or where you're trying to figure out what to do with your life. What's something that I would want to do indefinitely and what would be the decisions that I would have to make to be able to do that? content [00:51:00] is a really easy one because it's like, well, I could talk to people on a podcast and indefinitely, you know, I could ride my bike hopefully indefinitely. I love doing these things. And if I could essentially, like the the thought experiment that I go through is like, okay, what needs to be true in order for me to do this?

What are the things that I need to put in place so that I can infinitely do this thing and not be super stressed all the time or whatever. And that's sort of what I'm solving for right now. How can I continue to do this without burning myself out? And I think that's probably like the most important lesson from the Infinite game for me is burnout is a real thing if you're just grinding and grinding and grinding and grinding.

So how do you think about your infinite game when it comes to, I want to make mountain bike videos, I wanna do a podcast, but it's lot to be able to do both those things week in and week out. If I'm going to play this infinite game, what do I need to be [00:52:00] true? I probably need to find an editor. I probably need to find more sponsors so that I can pay for that editor.

And then how do I set up essentially this flywheel so that I can do the things that I want to do as long as I can? And I think the infinite game is really important when it comes to content because if you're an athlete competing in a sport and you don't have a content arm of your overall business or your flywheel or whatever, you are playing a a finite game, your career, you will at some point stop being competitive. then you'll have nothing and you'll be, you'll be done. Which is a really harsh way to say that, but it's true. When you stop being competitive, if you don't have anything else kind of in place, it's really hard. for me was actually the, the founding insight of why I started pushing my athletes into content, which we can talk about.

But to answer your question, on the infinite game, I wanna find the things that I love and I wanna do those things forever. What needs to be true so that I can play this infinite game of doing the things that I love forever. [00:53:00] And that's the puzzle that I'm sort of solving for. So it's not really about like, how do I max out and make like as much money as possible, because I think you could really burn yourself out and, you know, maybe you can do that infinitely, I don't know.

But it's not really about that. It's about this level of sustainability of like, what are the things that I need to do to be successful? And then how can I make sure that all I have to worry about is the creativity that goes into it and not the, the structure or you know, the basic stuff.

Christian (3): Yeah. One thing you've, we've referred to it a couple times and that's running, and I know that that's kind of maybe what got you to the YouTube channel. You've had this thing in your past where you, when you were working with a Red Bull athlete, you would, you, you'd basically learn the sport of the athlete and which is super admirable, right?

Like it's giving you empathy, it's giving you understanding. I love the idea of it. I'm really curious about this specifically around running and what drew you to running long distances. Like I, 'cause like I said, it'll be, there's kind [00:54:00] of a Dr. Uh, I have all these friends who are now all of a sudden ultra runners and it's super admirable.

Like, I can't wrap my head around running a hundred miles. I can't wrap my head around running 50 miles. But what is it that drew you to the running other than wanting to learn the sport that, uh, Dylan Bowman was doing, but then also my other question is what have you learned about yourself through running long distances?

Aaron: I think one of the most important unlocks from. Becoming a runner and going directly into ultra running was how you can actually do this impossible sounding thing in a pretty straightforward way. There's a, if you've heard of Cirque de Soleil, you know, it's like this crazy show where people do like flips and there's, you know, all kinds of different sports being represented there. And one of the things is a really crazy insight that I didn't realize previously. I had a friend who was in Cirque Des Le, who was a trials [00:55:00] writer, and I was asking him about the show itself. Like, oh, what kind of trips are you doing? And the show and whatever. He was down at the Florida one, was like, eh, I'm riding at like 40% of my ability level basically.

That way I can stay consistent and not mess up on stage and whatever else. And then I thought about it like, whoa. So all these people that are like blowing my mind are also doing about 40%. Like no one is actually at their limit during a Cirque de le show, which is sort of mind blowing because it's insane.

Like if you've ever seen any of those shows, you, you can't even fathom how they're able to do what they're doing. now you realize that probably they're like making grocery lists in their head while they're doing quadruple back flips in the air. They're just like bored because they've done it a billion times. And so ultra running for me is sort of the same thing of like, oh my God, that is the gnarliest thing ever. How could anybody do that? And then you realize like, oh wait, no, there's a formula [00:56:00] for doing this. Both with training to get to that point, and also for the fueling and understanding how all those things come together. And then I realized like, oh yeah, most of these people can run way farther than a hundred miles if they fueled and trained correctly. Huh. So actually running a 50 K isn't like the peak of their, it's not their limit. Wow. Oh. So I had like sort of a similar light switch go off when I approached it of wait a minute, this seemed like the craziest thing you can do, but now there's people running 200 miles or even, you know, like running full, like I ran the Appalachian Trail, you know, whatever. Uh, I think I had sort of like a similar realization of like, wait, you could run indefinitely if you could figure out training and fueling. That was sort of the unlock for me mentally, was understanding that what I've learned about myself since I started running. That's a great question. I think I haven't had like a [00:57:00] key insight about myself other than I can do hard things and if I apply, you know, basic structures like training and fueling, I can really kind of unlock anything. I think if anything. Maybe what I've learned most is that I'm really great at being consistent, but I don't know when to stop being consistent. Um, so I could train and, and run as many races as I want, but like, should I, I think with content stuff, I sometimes ask myself that question where it's like, you know, uh, that I'm working on, I've proven to myself that if I'm consistent long enough, I will be successful. But is that actually the right answer for everything? Because if I wanted to, I could just nuke myself by starting up 10 YouTube channels and consistently putting out content, but then quality suffers, or my focus suffers. And so I think what I've learned both with running and content is that you can [00:58:00] You just can't do it all at the same time.

Christian (3): Nice. Are you still running?

Aaron: Occasionally I ran with Ryan Thrower when he was visiting here. So much of my time now is spent on mountain

Christian (3): Sure.

Aaron: uh, I feel like there's another, you know, uh, maybe there's another chapter of running coming up soon. I still run, but I'm not, I'm doing more of like weightlifting and riding now just to stay super fit and I'm so focused on making sure that the Mountain Bike channel can continue growing and doing its thing that, yeah, usually if I have a free second where I'm not talking to somebody on a podcast like this one or second nature or whatever, um, I'm probably on two wheels.

Christian (3): That's a good place to be. I always close with one, one final question, which is, how do you define success for yourself? And you always close the second nature podcast with what you call the BPC, the brand, brand, product, or content. So I thought we would combine the two.

Uh, we don't have to combine the two answers, but we'll combine the two questions. So we'll start with B, p, C, wonder if you brought a A, BPC that you could, uh, share with the [00:59:00] audience today.

Aaron: I, I do. Um, there is someone that I'm, I'm really interested in, um, we're gonna have him on the pod coming up soon too, but his name is Patrick Crawford and my BPC is this article that he was interviewed for called Influencers versus Content Creators. Who's winning in 2025? Patrick Crawford is a really fascinating guy because he was one of the, he founded Free Skiing magazine, but he also free skier. need a fact check on that one. But either way, he founded a skiing magazine, but then he also started this company called inkwell. And during my time at Red Bull, he was, and Inkwell was the social media agency that dealt with all of the biggest athletes in the world. So if you remember the free solo movie. Yeah. That was them marketing that through Athlete socials. They worked with Travis Rice, they worked with Jimmy Chin. All the biggest names were on Inkwell from like the outdoor and action sports world. And I was always so fascinated and um, I'd been reading his Zero Draft [01:00:00] Substack for a while and then we got on a call and I didn't realize that was actually the same guy.

And I was like, oh wait, I'm like a super fanboy. but this article that he was interviewed for is really just, it feels like required reading for anybody that works at a brand that's working with content creators. Because I think that Patrick is really good at sort of. people's thoughts around like, what's actually important.

Like there was the, the interviewer asked him a question about like, oh, what's better? You know, TikTok or YouTube? And he is like, well, actually, what are you trying to accomplish? And what is your goal? Because for each, you know, for each goal, maybe one is better than the other. It's not that simple. And here's how I think of the difference between an influencer and a creator.

And he just really kind of redefines a lot of stuff in a way that's really succinct and valuable. And, um, he does this thing called Cadence Media Strategy now, which I think, yeah, the, the insights [01:01:00] that this guy has when it comes to content creation and, and content strategy and everything, a wizard.

So this article is a great primer on him. And, uh, yeah, highly recommended.

Christian (3): Very cool. I'll link to it in the show notes. , it makes me think like that idea of like, well, what is it that you're looking for? The question I always try to start with is like, what is the result we're looking for? Like, let's just start with that, that, that question. What is, what is the result we're looking for?

No, that's a good one. Um, I'll give a similar one. It's also, one thing we didn't talk about is the power of Substack and the written word, which is, you know, I think the personal blog is coming back, it's coming back to style. I know you're a fan of Ryan Holiday. Are you familiar with Billy Oppenheimer?

Aaron: No, I'm

Christian (3): Okay, so Billy Oppenheim. Billy Oppenheimer is Ryan Holiday's, , research assistant, and he has a, the most power in the fewest words newsletter on the internet. It's called six at Six. I'll link to it. I'll send you the link to Aaron. And, uh, it's called six at Six. And it's one theme, but it's six stories or [01:02:00] anecdotes that tie together to this one theme and.

It's one of those things where I love connections, especially when they're from various different, um, subjects and they kind of come together into one theme. The guy's a master and you can tell that he's constantly consuming, , very good content.

Aaron: So cool. Oh,

Christian (3): Okay.

Aaron: that. That's good insight.

Christian (3): Okay. Six at six.

Aaron: holiday fan. The, the Daily Stoic is like one of my top recommended books, so if there is a guy behind the guy, that's, that's where I want to be. That

Christian (3): Yeah. I, I feel like Billy Oppenheimer is one of those things where it's like, uh, in 10 years you'd be like, when he has a bestselling book on the New York Times, he'd be like, oh yeah, I used to, I used to read his newsletter back in the day.

Aaron: so

Christian (3): Okay, so the, the, that's the BPC, the, the question I always end with is how do you define success for yourself?

Aaron: Oh, that is a really great question. I, um. I think it really comes down to just, I'm more of a quality over quantity kind of guy, and I want to be feeling good about supporting [01:03:00] the people around me and, and bringing value to them. Like it all just comes back to that. I, I do track my, my YouTube stats, you know, I care about that stuff because it is a signal of am I bringing value to people?

Do people care about what I have to say? Are they drawing any value from that? So it's like sort of a quantitative way to look at it. But it really does come down to this qualitative, like, do I, do I feel like I'm doing something useful? Am I valuable to the people around me? Am I bringing value with every single project that I put out? feel like I'm using my time appropriately? And, and so I think it's a little bit, maybe it's a little wishy-washy, but I just, I define success is just really, I. Do I feel like I'm bringing enough value? Am I doing it right? And what could I be doing to bring more value to people and where can I put my energy to make sure that that's true?

Christian (3): That's excellent. That's great. Well, I wish you more of that success then.

Aaron: Thank you.

Christian (3): , [01:04:00] great. Well, I appreciate it, Aaron. It's been a pleasure, uh, connecting with you in learning. What, what else do you have to share with us or where do you wanna send people? You've got a couple different places on the internet that people can find you.

Aaron: Yeah, if you're a bike rider, go check out Super Rider. Uh, it's Super Rider TV on Instagram, and actually it's the same on on YouTube, but you could just search out Super Rider and you'll probably find it if you care about mountain biking. There's a, there's a newsletter as well. So every Monday I send out like the, you know, my favorite bike videos from the week and a tip, you know, a riding tip and some editorial and stuff like that as well. So we're basically everywhere. , but if you really care about the, the business of the outdoor industry, I think second nature is a really great place to start. And again, it comes back to the value, like we're trying to speak to as many people and share. Out their learnings. And one of the things that I'm trying really hard to do with that podcast is get people to share more of their horror stories. Because if we're all there to learn, you're not really learning. If someone's just flexing about the high points of their career, you gotta like get into the, the really rough times because that's [01:05:00] when that person learned the most. And that's what everyone else is going to learn from. And so I'm trying to sort of normalize the, the horror story without turning into, whatever.

But I want to share as much as we possibly can there. And I think one of the things that makes Second Nature special that I'm sort of trying to do with Dylan is also make it valuable in a sort of evergreen sense. So it's not necessarily, although it's about the business of the outdoor, it's not necessarily a, like a, a news thing.

It's, it's really about like, here's lessons that I learned. In my journey and I wanna share with other people. So you could listen to, you know, episode 20 or episode 120 and you'd still get value out of everything. It's, um, it's meant to, to kind of just, again, bring value to people in a, in a meaningful way.

Both people on the microphone and people listening to it.

Christian (3): Yeah, well a hundred percent. If you listen to this podcast, you will. Be a fan of the Second Nature podcast because we are doing very similar things. We have very similar outlooks on [01:06:00] life, business and the outdoor industry. So, uh, we're, uh, cousins in that way. Cool, man. , appreciate it so much, Aaron.

Aaron: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

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